Monday, May 16, 2011

Whores are not 'normal,' mainstream or 'straight' but third gender or 'gay'

Excerpts from the Wikibooks article: Relationships/ Hormones


Women's interest in sex varies in character and intensity over their menstrual cycles, during pregnancy and nursing, and during menopause. Women's sex drives can be as strong or stronger than men's, but only at specific times.

Female mammals will have sex only in certain places. E.g., female elephant seals select a beach with minimal danger from predators. Female red deer select a meadow with abundant food to support fawns. Many human females like familiar surroundings, moderate temperature, etc.

Female primates prefer to mate with specific males. Whether a male physically dominated other males (e.g., gorillas), or built a social network (e.g., baboons), or is one's life partner (e.g., gibbons), rejecting inappropriate males is central to female sexuality.

Saturday, September 09, 2006

The cosmic glass ceiling jail

Hindustan Times, July 07, 2006
Sagarika Ghose

July 7, 2006

Not one but two women have created a storm of protest by claiming that they have entered the shrine of Sabarimala. The Sabarimala shrine, where women between the ages of 10 and 55 are strictly prohibited, is a shrine to male celibacy. Lord Ayappan is said to be the god of the brahmachari. If women are allowed into Sabarimala, says the thantri or priest, the entire edifice of the temple will collapse and the very reason for the arduous pilgrimage will be nullified.

An ancient monastic pilgrimage will be demolished for the sake of contemporary notions of gender justice. A sanctified tradition that exists precisely because of its transcendental distance from the 21st century will be brought into the dull ambit of everyday political correctness. Are the voices calling for the entry of women into Sabarimala guilty of forcing a lumpen modernism into the stern austere place where the god’s traditions have been kept alive for hundreds of years?

According to Sanal Edamaruku of the India Rationalist Association, Sabarimala might originally have been a Buddhist site, where men came as monks to a monastery. So while Sabarimala’s restrictions on women may not be consonant with modern notions of gender equality, its traditions are Buddhist and monastic, where celibacy is the philosophical undertow. Rahul Easwar, the long-haired, English-speaking grandson of the thantri, says Sabarimala is about a certain ‘psychological space’, the space for the brahmachari ideal. If that ideal is lost, an important distinctive cult will be ironed into the uniformity of ‘modern acceptability’.

To call for Sabarimala to be open for women is like saying that women should be allowed to enter monasteries, or men should be allowed inside nunneries. It’s like saying that the orders of the Jesuits and the Benedictines should admit women, or that the Loreto order of nuns should admit men.

A deeper question arises from the Sabarimala controversy. Are religions hostile to women? The writer Polly Toynbee believes many of them are. Eve, forever the reason for Adam’s lust, must always be subjugated. Sex pollutes god and sex invariably means women. Thus religion is pure and women are dirty. Women must, therefore, be shaved, bathed, purified, placed in a convent or isolated behind purdah, and unclean menstruating woman must be kept out of holy rituals. The perverted hatred of a woman’s body, Toynbee believes, places religions on a collision course with modernity, and unless religions reform themselves, societies will never change.

The Catholic Church’s ban on abortion and contraception has long placed it in opposition to feminists worldwide. Many have suggested that the reason why Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code is so successful is that it revives an old heresy within the Catholic Church, the heresy of a female apostle. After all, if Mary Magdalene was so close to Jesus, is it not possible that she too could have been one of the carriers of the word of God, just like Luke, John and Peter?

By contrast, women in Hinduism seem nowhere near as subjugated as they appear in the Catholic tradition. The mother goddess, the Shakti cults, the naked, rampaging Kali, the avenging Durga, and the hundreds of little traditions of Lakshmi, Saraswati, Parvati and Santoshi Mata are all evidence of a plethora of female goddesses. On the face of it, there are no strictures against birth control; women participate in worship as equally as men, pilgrimages are undertaken as couples, and whether it’s a ganga snan, an evening arti, temple entry or Amarnath yatra, men and women are relatively equal in the holy realm.

But gaze a little closer at the practice of Hinduism today and you’ll find that women, for whatever reason (because of the dominance of the Brahmin male or because women have perhaps never needed to assert themselves in a tradition that is seemingly open), have not played as vital a role as they could have given the role models in the form of goddesses.

Every student of history learns about the debate between Yajnavalkya and Gargi in the Brihadarnyaka Upanishad. Gargi Vachaknavi was the ancient Upanishadic scholar, who was seen to challenge the men of an elite Brahmin academy when she asked Yajnavalkya, the leading scholar of the time, to participate in a debate with her. But all Gargi did, we learn to our disappointment, was simply ask two questions of Yajnavalkya about space, at the end of which he shut her up with the firm retort: “Do not question beyond this. You may go crazy.” So much for Gargi.

The ladies of the Hindu epics are truly feisty dames. Yet, at the same time, none of them seems to ever leave the wife/mother trap and play roles that show her acquiring any sort of direct relationship with divinity. Kunti refused to play adoring mother. Instead she floated her son down a river and had five other sons from five other fathers. But Kunti’s chief identity seems to be frozen as the errant mother of Karna, rather than as a woman with a complex relationship with divinity, as represented perhaps by the ‘Sun’, the ‘Wind’ or any of the ‘fathers’ of her sons. Aditi, according to a captivating play I had the privilege of seeing, was so determined to win the battle of egos with her sons that she buried one of them under the earth with an elephant for company!

But in the end her son triumphed over her too. Savitri stared down Yamaraj himself but only to rescue her husband Satyavan from untimely death. And Draupadi, bless her soul, was not only married to five husbands, but according to some accounts, even had Krishna for a lover. But again, the former fact remained her main identity. The sexuality of the Hindu woman is neither apologetic nor hidden, yet the Hindu woman’s path to God seems to always be through her family, her husband, her children or her lovers.

In a universe teeming with female goddesses, there are still very few women priests or religious scholars today. Most godwomen exist outside the ambit of formal religion. Tulsidas’s notorious phrase, Dhol, ganwar, shudra, pashu, nari, yeh sab taadan ke adhikari (lower castes, animals and women should be thrown away), is still recited.

One of the few goddesses of the big league, a woman who seems to have broken the cosmic glass ceiling, is Durga, who rules supreme in her corner of Bharat. But again Durga’s is hardly a mainstream Vedic cult and is located primarily in the folk traditions of Bengal, Bihar and Orissa.

In north India, Karva Chauth and Raksha Bandhan are festivals centred around appeasing a male relative. As for Manu, the doughty law-giver, didn’t he roundly declare that a woman must be protected by her father, husband and son at different stages of life, as she is never fit for independence? Many Hindu traditions seem to clothe their exclusion of women under a shimmering veil of superficial freedom.

So Sabarimala may be a brahmachari shrine where women should not enter. Yet for all Hindu women who meekly accept their religion’s rituals and pieties, the Sabarimala shrine is also a symbol of a need to question why their ancestral faith tries to exclude them.

(The writer is Features Editor, CNN-IBN: sagarika.ghose@gmail.com)

Sabarimala:For Women's right to worship

By Raji Rajagopalan

16 July, 2004
Countercurrents.org

What is the relationship between religion and women's rights? Should we care about the treatment of women by religions of the world? Should we be bothered when we see, even in the twenty-first century, a woman being prohibited from doing certain things, like becoming ordained or entering a temple just because she is a woman?

I ask, why not? Why should we let society draw circles around us citing our gender as the only reason? If some women want to enter golf clubs where they are prohibited, wouldn't some women want to enter temples where they are prohibited?

Take my cousin, for instance. There is a temple in South India that my cousin desperately wants to visit. She is a devotee of the God housed there and would cherish her visit to His temple as a Muslim would cherish her Hajj. But, unfortunately, my cousin's 'Hajj' is not for at least another twenty years, for she is only thirty years old now, and women between the ages of ten and fifty are banned from the temple she wants to visit.

This temple is called "Sabarimala". It is situated atop a hill in Kerala and houses a bachelor God called Ayyappa. It is purported that around the 14th of January, every year, a celestial fire - a Jyothi with healing powers - glows in the sky near the Sabarimala shrine. My cousin, like a million other devotees, believes that seeing this celestial fire is her panacea. "But," the Temple board tells her, "you can’t have that panacea. You see, you are not a man."

But why does the Temple board tell her so? It gives a smorgasbord of reasons: The eight kilometer trek to the temple along dense woods is arduous for women; Ayyappa is a bachelor God and his bachelorhood will be broken if he sees a woman; the forty-one-day penance for the pilgrimage, where one must live as abstemiously as a saint, cannot be undertaken by women - they are too weak for that; men cohorts will be enticed to think bad thoughts if women joined them in their trek; letting women into the temple will disrupt law and order; women's menstrual blood will attract animals in the wild and jeopardize fellow travelers; menstruation is a no-no for God.

And so the list of lame reasons grows. Don't think that no one has ever questioned the inanity of those reasons. Several Indian feminists have fought, and keep fighting, with the Temple board in favor of the women devotees. But the Temple board remains implacable. It is backed by enormous political clout, and poor Indian feminists, like feminists almost everywhere, must fend for themselves. It doesn't help that many Indian women are disinterested in any feminist struggle. They think that it is presumptuous for women to defy established customs. It is hard to rally them, especially when it involves flouting tradition or religion.

Nevertheless, many brave and, sometimes, distressed women, boldly try to go where no young woman has gone before. Times of India reports, "The distraught mother of two boys, one with kidney disease and the other mentally unsound...wanted to beseech Lord Ayyappa to save her family. But the law is hard and cold. The police arrested her before she reached the sanctum ..." Here is a report from a publication called Hinduism Today: "The ban was upheld by Kerala's high court in 1990, but the issue is now being raised by a 42-year old district collector, K.B. Valsala Kumari, who was ordered to coordinate pilgrim services at the shrine. A special court directive allowed her to perform her government duties at the shrine, but not to enter the sanctum sanctorum." In December 2002, Khaleej Times reported, "Women have made this year's Sabarimala pilgrim season controversial by entering the prohibited hill shrine...Kerala high court has ordered an inquiry to find out how a large number of women had reached the shrine in violation of court orders." Strange, isn't it, for the court to scribe such discriminatory orders?

I can understand if religious fundamentalists raise a wall in the path of women. After all, these people can't think straight, I tell myself. But if the court, a body comprised of intelligent individuals who are supposed to be epitomes of fairness, does it, I find it hard to digest. Why does an entity "by the people, for the people, and of the people" perpetrate such odious acts of discrimination? Isn't it deplorable that women can't enter an institution that a body elected by them funds and oversees?

Fifty-four years ago, when the Constitution of India was framed, "Untouchables" - the lower-caste Indians who were believed to be "impure" and hence objectionable to God - won the right to equality and broke open the gates of temples that were closed to them thus far. Article 25(2b) was instituted specifically for them; to ensure that they could pursue their religion unhampered. This article gives State the power to make laws for "the throwing open of Hindu religious institutions of a public character to all classes and sections of Hindus". Sabarimala IS a publicly funded temple: Article 290A of the Indian Constitution entails the State of Kerala to pay, yearly, 4.65 million rupees to Sabarimala's Temple board. Nevertheless, it has so far remained shut to one section of Indians - the young Indian women. And the State, instead of opening it for them, works to ensure that it remains shut to them.

It is ironic that this shrine, praised as "an unmatched instance of religious tolerance", a temple open to men of all castes and religions, doesn't tolerate most women. The society that has grown, at least outwardly, to breach "God's decree" to keep lower-caste men out of His vicinity, is still struggling to defy "His despise" for women. Especially, menstruating women.

Is it so because women are still regarded impure and detestable, at least during certain times? Is it because none in power is disposed to champion women's causes? Is it because women themselves are disinclined to unite against their discrimination? Is it because caste-discrimination is accepted to be viler than gender-discrimination? Is it because society is averse to disturbing the male-dominated hierarchy in India? Whatever it is, I think that this ban on women in Sabarimala, while it appears to be a religious issue, at its core, indicates an uglier problem - the oft-dismissed and court-sanctioned oppression of women in India.

Feminist's views on Sabarimala controversy

I am no expert on religion or the state.

However, when a temple goes all up in arms about women polluting their sanctum sanctorum - it pisses me off. No point in trying to force a revolution though. To me, the issue is simple. Does the state (centre or state) give any funds to Sabarimala temple or the board? Is the government a board member? Is the government providing security at the temple?

If they are - then it’s the taxpayer’s money that is going to support an institution that discriminates on the basis of sex. Against the constitution, isn’t it? Especially because it’s not a minorities institution. (I could be wrong here - but am venturing into murkier waters.) That, is not acceptable to me. Cut state funding. Make sure it becomes totally un-cool to go to a temple that is discriminatory. A private club has the right to deny admission. But if you receive state funding, you are no longer private.

In the end it’s simple. The more resources women control, the more difficult it will be for any institution to alienate them. Because women will merely find another avenue to give or to pray. Religion is flexible enough to allow for dissent. In the end - temples will have to be less discriminatory because of sheer economic and financial reasons.

Why does it matter you ask? Why don’t women just ignore religion? Because religion is inherited wealth as well. No way am I going to give up on any legacy that I have a right to. Women should be able to go Sabarimala or Timbuktoo not because they want to, but because they have a right to.


82 Responses to “Sabarimala, women and the state”

  1. 1 Nilu

    Quite the contrary - the wealthy temples never wanted the state to take control. There have been enough legal battles to prove that.

    They were a sexiist private club and wanted to remain that way. Till they were forced otherwise. The same is the case with dalits entering temples.

  2. 2 Neha Viswanathan

    Nilu: Fair enough. Let the temples then not have state control. Let the state give up their rights over them. All temples need patronage and favours. Point is - can they afford to be sexist for very long? (Sad bit - they probably can.)

  3. 3 ammani

    Umachi kannu kutha poradu! :p

  4. 4 Aswath Damodaran

    every temple is governed by a trust. The trust has a board which takes decisions. Devotees go to a temple in good faith. Women are proscribed from entering the holy temple because of allegiance to a code in force. This issue is not about alienation and dissent. This religious order has chosen to accept a rule which may not be acceptable to all. There are shrines of goddesses where men are not allowed to enter.

    Lord Ayyappa as a deity can be worshipped by women. Sabarimala will continue to remain out of bounds to women.

    The bane of feminism is in seeking equity in defiance of the laws of nature. Worthy causes get short shrift in the pursuit of equality on all dimensions, unredeemed it shall be !

  5. 5 vidya

    Neha,
    Huh hope comment doesn’t get longer than the post.

    In these cases the legal issues are not always the ethical ones.Take the case of the Navaratri Mandapam concerts conducted in Trivandrum women are not allowed near the dias and women performers are also not allowed.However it is the festival for the worship of a Goddess.Unfortunately no one can question this twisted logic because it is a family’s (a royal one at that) personal decision and finances that run the organization.Again take the case of August Golf Club.Is it in anyway different in principle from the Sabari mala episode??

    Second, in the sabarimala issue, women seem to participate in the poojas ie pre-temple going poojas,bhajans, cooking and making arrangements for their menfolk who go there.It is for this reason that when someone invited me for an Ayyappan Pooja that I refuse.Makes me wonder what would happen if every wife,mother,daughter refuses to participate in something that denies them the same right. That however is not the case.And this is where the problem of faith and belief and their unquestionability steps in.All the believers I have spoken to say:
    - So what is the big deal? such a trivial issue.Does it affect you in anyway?
    - Yes that’s how it was and it is.You can’t change things
    - They actually did it for a reason trying to wear the glasses of reason

  6. 6 raj

    Whether or not Govt money is involved, the discrimination cannot be justified. If sufficient societal pressure is exerted, these temples and clubs will have to relent. But, I don’t hear even a whisper of a protest from women on this issue.

  7. 7 Greatbong

    If they are - then it’s the taxpayer’s money that is going to support an institution that discriminates on the basis of sex. Against the constitution, isn’t it? Especially because it’s not a minorities institution.

    Didnt quite understand that…is it constitutional to send money to a minorities institution? I would think it should be unconstitutional for a secular state to send money to any place of religious worship.

  8. 8 Neha Viswanathan

    Vidya: I understand your point of view completely. It pisses me off completely when certain aspects of culture are behind testosterone barriers. And the responses shock me too. Don’t we want to take ownership of our heritage? I keep getting asked why I bother if I am not religious in the first place. But the right to worship or right to engage with culture has little to do with what I want to do. Yes - and the most irritating thing is when people try to rationalize the barrier.

    Aswath: This little club has the right to be selective about admission so long as they don’t receive state funds. It’s quite another thing that it’s moronic to deny women entry to a temple because they could be having their periods on that day. And I suppose your esteemed self will be determining what is a worthy cause and what is a frivolous one? LOL!

    raj: Discrimination cannot be justified - true. But a private institution is free to do as they please - if they want to risk losing patronage if the society itself undergoes some sort of transformation. I suppose I don’t believe that institutions have responsibilities - they only have interests. My guess - it is in their interest to allow women - or it’s Tirupathi Balaji Devasthanam Board that’s going to earn even more. I think women believe that they are isolated in their demands - maybe. Or simply that the institutions seem too large to take on.

    Greatbong: True. But Secularism in India has come to mean “equi-distant” from all religions as opposed to “no-distance”. I think minorities organisations even if supported with Government funds are allowed to discriminate in favour of the minorities they work for. Discrimination is allowed in organisations that are not funded by the government I think. (Discrimination veiled as Selective Admission). However, if the organisation that is funded is not a Minorities Organisation - then I don’t think it can practice selective admission. (Be it a college or school.) But I am no expert on state or religion so I could be wrong.

    Yes. It should be unconstitutional for the state to fund any religious organisation or cause. Or to pay salaries of priests for that matter.

    Ammani: *Does a quick “tappu tappu”*

  9. 9 nikita

    hey, neha, don’t you find it really amusing when people come up with hugely deterministic notions like the ‘laws of nature’ to construct boundaries!!

    like nature is this monolith or this space that is unchangeing, or all-knowing. how convenient! and what a cop-out.

    liked your retort!

  10. 10 anonymous

    aswath,
    Can you please list the shrines where men are not allowed? As far as I am aware there are Bhagavati temples in Kerala which bar men only during the Pongala festival period.

  11. 11 megha

    I had written a similar post a long while ago, but it focused on how it was foolhardy to not allow women in temples or take part in festivities because of their period or ‘unclean-state’(a term which I abhor), nice to know that someone finally spoke about about Sabrimala.

    I might talk about Sabrimala in a future post, do you mind if I link to your post then?

  12. 12 Aswath Damodaran

    Neha,

    there is nothing moronic about an institution denying entry to women. you and i can choose to dislike that practice. State funds are given to prisons, asylums and other places where women are ill-treated and denied dignity that is due to all. Using that determinant to enforce equality is a weak and ineffective mode of action albeit an option.

    as much as opinions can differ on the worthiness of causes to take up in an ongoing struggle to remove artificial barriers, it stands to reason that denial of admission to a place of worship should be considered as important as the other chronic problems that women in societies worldwide have had to endure without a solution in sight.

    Nikita,

    I do not believe that you understand the philosophy of determinism. Laws of nature are impregnable indeed and do not have any relevance to determinism. I did not allude to a law of nature in defence of the temple’s decision to deny entry to women although it is easy to tie together my separate comments to construe something that i do not represent. You are welcome to disagree with me on a point of principle though my discomfiture arises when the underlying message is twisted out of its intent and presented demeaningly.

    If this forum is intolerant of views that run counter to the popular view as determined by a majority then it remains poorer than what it purports to be.

  13. 13 bharat

    “Does the state (centre or state) give any funds to Sabarimala temple or the board? ”

    I am not really sure about that but the Devoswom Board has enof to maintain the temple for a few hundred years.

    ” Is the government a board member? ”

    Nopes. The Devoswom board is the final authority in deciding whom to let in and whom to keep out.

    “Is the government providing security at the temple? ”

    There are more than 2000 Kerala state policemen on duty around the temple premises.

    “Cut state funding.”

    Wouldn’t make a big difference.

    “Make sure it becomes totally un-cool to go to a temple that is discriminatory.”

    Every temple is. Think about the priests. And since when did “going to a temple” become cool?

    ” Women should be able to go Sabarimala or Timbuktoo not because they want to, but because they have a right to.

    “No, you don’t. If you are between 10 and 50 you don’t. especially if the very God you want to worship doesn’t want you to.

    Sabarimala is NOT just another shrine where you take your car on a sunday morning, drive a few miles, pay to get in a “special queue” and sit in the sanctum sanctorum till your ass aches. Like most other things spirutual, it is a phenomenon understood only when experienced.

    Jayamala’s story is so ducked* up.

    1) There are two entries into Sabarimala. One from pul medu from the top of the shrine and the other from pamba below the hill. And, as long as the place has been there, women between 10 and 50 aren’t allowed beyond even pamba let alone into sabarimala and then into the sanctum sanctorum.Jayamala claims to have done it wen she was 27. ( I recall having trouble distinguishing the “heros” from the “heroines” in older movies, but this was in the mid 80s. Makes me wonder if she were a transvestite….*and a chain of thoughts that are too digressive*)

    2) It is blasphemy for common men to touch the idol. And there are atleast 20 strong policemen around the “garbagraham” apart from the priests around the area. I know for a fact that how much ever one is pushed, they will, as a last resort shut the doors but will not be allow anyone to enter.

    Religion is beyond reason and logic. If this is an issue to you, God himself/herself/itself is an issue to an atheist. In a lot of temples in Kerala, the men folk have to enter bare chested and only in dhotis. No lungis, not even full pants. There are the ‘do’s and there are the ‘don’t’s. As long it is religious and not superstitious and you have accepted it to be your religion, you have to stick to it. No point in trying to “force a revolution.” The reason I say this is coz, this particular rule was not enforced by the board, government, trustees or the priests. The mandala viradham, the irumudi, the 10-50 rule are all said to have been told by the Lord himself to King Rajashekara when the latter asked him that he be allowed to raise a temple for the Lord as a boon. From time immemorial this has been the case.

    This is beyond feminism, equal rights, reason or logic. I dunno if this is worth raising an issue coz it’s more about beliefs and faith than it being legal or anything that is bound by a constitution.

    * - ‘d’ is beside ‘f’, I’m fat fingered and don’t like word filters or ‘*’s.

  14. 14 Ash

    Man, this is one ugly issue. I can’t believe the opinions of some people. Check out the comment thread on the other post I linked to along with your post on DP. Jeez, their ‘logic’ and ‘arguments’ are mind-bogglingly insane.

  15. 15 Patrix

    Well said. I haven’t had the time to sort out my thoughts and write on this yet but would closely follow yours. The typical response (as said by Aswath here) infuriates me the most. The heart of the matter is loss of control and unwillingness to change irrational prejudices. Taking refuge of ‘tradition, culture and age old religious’ practices is simply unacceptable in rapidly changing times of increased equality. We hear similar arguments in the ‘women in the army’ issue (protecting the women against sexual assault).

    I might take your protest a bit further. It might be even unacceptable to refuse entry into private institutions based on ‘unconstitutional differences’…kinda similar to the EEO policy in the US…you can be sued if you discriminate on the basis of sex, race, national origin, etc. even if it is your company. The Fair Housing Act specifically warrants that no discrimination may occur on basis of race even if you damn own the house. Difficult to prove but your rights are protected in the constitution.

    The aethists are right. As we grow older, our belief in religion tends to wane. Such events just make me wanna go to the other side :)

  16. 16 Nilu

    Nilu’s axiom of the desi blogosphere - if you make a post and Patrix agrees with you and in fact, says he wanted to write that, you should go on a forced vacation.

  17. 17 Suraj

    While our stance is logical, these are ‘rules’ that cite vedic and ancient origins. These won’t get ‘ammended’, ever. So in effect, our argument is reduced to the right that the dalits claim to enter temples. Will the Meenakshi Amman temple allow Dalits to enter? I don’t see that happening until 3000 AD.

    Its a different question if one who wants rights would want to follow such stupid rules and be part of the same stupid system or create a new one (like the ‘Samathuvapurams’, etc.,.).

  18. 18 Jaffna

    Sabaramalai does not receive Government funds. But the state administers its endowment as a trustee.

    Regardless, Sabarimalai should open its doors to women. Women should also have the right to participate in the public prayer at the mosque or for that matter to lead the prayer if need be. And women should have the right to become priests in the Roman Catholic church.

    The right to polygamy under the garb of personal law should be abolished unless it be accompanied with the right to polyandry.

    Sexism in religion, regardless of whether the religion be the majority or a minority, has to stop.

    Best regards

  19. 19 Nilu

    Jaffna,
    Just curious, how do you get to make statements like “Regardless, Sabarimalai should open its doors to women. ” or “The right to polygamy under the garb of personal law should be abolished unless it be accompanied with the right to polyandry.”

    How seriously do you get to take yourself? Does this happen always or are there time contraints? Is it seasonal?

  20. 20 Happy-Go-Lucky

    Hi Neha,

    I dont exactly agree with your views on this.
    When i started typing my comment, I realized that it was getting too long :-)
    So I have posted my reponse here.

    http://lostinmob.blogspot.com/2006/06/swamiye-sharam-ayyappa-this-post-is-in.html

    Rgds

  21. 21 Neha Viswanathan

    nikita: :)

    anonymous: There are rituals which are accessible only to women. I think some of them - like in Orissa were instituted in the 70s - Year of the Woman or something like that.

    megha: Like you need to ask! You dog! :)

    Aswath: 1. It’s MY opinion. I choose to think it’s moronic. 2. Religion is extremely important. It’s a source of power. Women’s situation in the public domain is influenced deeply by the fact that one of the most powerful sources of heritage refuses to let them have a hand in how resources are distributed. Women’s issues cannot be broken up into little palatable pills - you have to look at the entire context.

    Btw - It’s really important that you stop maligning some poor prof at Stern, linking the name to Stanford.

    Bharat: What was told by the Lord is entirely irrelevant to me. Especially because the ones privy to the Lord’s brief sermons tend to be men as well. Again - I am not making an argument where I say even women are spiritual etc etc. To me a temple is a place where power rests - be it in terms of finances or the ability to lobby with the government - or it’s ability to sanction something in the society.

    This is beyond feminism, equal rights, reason or logic. I dunno if this is worth raising an issue coz it’s more about beliefs and faith than it being legal or anything that is bound by a constitution.

    Nothing is beyond feminism, equal rights and reason. Even faith and belief has to be relevant to people’s lives. Who are you and I to determine it doesn’t affect women? AFAIK - South India’s economy for most centuries has been determined by the Temple Economy model. Temples controlled land, tax and trade in the cities. They are as much about politics as they are about poojas.

    Ash: Phew! Yes, imagine I wake up to these comments now. But fun nevertheless!

    Patrix: I suppose the lines become harder to draw when it’s a little private club. :) But yes, the responses that infuriate me include - This is a spiritual matter, How does it matter to women, Just ask women to go elsewhere, It’s just a temple blah blah! As though temples are just centres of spirituality.

    Suraj: Access to a temple is not about faith. You can be an atheist and still want to go to a temple to admire its architecture or sticky floors. This is not about wanting no? It’s about rights.

    I think a lot of temples have had to buckled to pressure. I see no reason why that can’t happen in other temples.

    Confused: Pointless. That’s like saying - there’s just one magazine making sexist and racist remarks - just buy the other magazines instead.

    Jaffna: Reform has to come from within, or institutions rot. However, as far as I know - recently the government spent a large sum of money engaging environmental and social consultants to re-do “approaching the Lord” and what surprises me is that many of the things this astrologer told them, went as recommendations in a highly private report 1.5 years back. Makes me wonder.. hhhmm.

    Happy-Go-Lucky: The government is spending on the shrine one way or the other. They’ve been hiring consultants to spruce up the place. They provide security and what not. Even if a rupee goes as expenditure on the temple (Regardless of how much the temple ropes in) then I would demand my money isn’t spent on a sexist institution. Besides, worship of Ayappa has an interesting history. Another way to understand how Sabarimala is not just “a Hindu shrine” - is to pick up Yoginder Sikand’s work on Sacred Spaces - and how the syncretic nature of the Wavar shrine has been systematically destroyed over the years.

    Besides, it’s mighty pompous of us to claim we are privy to the Lord’s changing desires isn’t it! Someone is going to extend your argument to cover issues of homosexuality, marriage and what not. Do tell me, would it satisfy the temple authorities if a 25 year old woman walked in with the evidence of hysterectomy? Without a uterus is a woman safe enough for the shrine?

  22. 22 Mahesh

    Well, I dont think there should be state funding for any religious institution, makes the whole thing non-secular. People are rich enough and fanatic enough to give funding for temples at will.
    Regarding the Sabrimalai incident, well the term used like “purification” and “pollution by women” are not right. But if a temple has a rule saying it will not allow women inside, well then they just wont. It is not an act of discrimination. It is tradition and people do follow it. I am sure many women in Hindu religion respect the fact that women arent allowed inside, and so it is really an issue of semantics than anything else.

  23. 23 Kanchana Natarajan

    while i see a passionate outpouring of opinions and vehement defence of those, are any of you going to take the next step to bring about a change ? feminism loses its promise when it stops with raising awareness. would any of you care to write a petition to the authorities concerned ? we work with a broad canvas of issues and take steps on the ground. There is a risk of feminism merely becoming advocacy instead of the changes it can engender.

  24. 24 Ambar

    Does the state (centre or state) give any funds to Sabarimala temple or the board? Is the government a board member? Is the government providing security at the temple?

    The larger question would be, what the hell is the government doing involving itself with religious entities?

  25. 25 Jaffna

    Nilu

    I did not understand you. I was advocating change across the board. What is wrong in that? You trivialize by questioning the need for reform across religions. This is advocacy alright but one has to start somewhere.

  26. 26 sigbhu

    it’s not just feminism…

    why, oh why should the state fund religion?? (or make money from it)

    aren’t we a secular state (okay, i know it doesn’t mean that)

    but then why should the state fund some and subsidize some ?
    why should it build schools teaching urdu for 1.2% of the local poluation? why does it ignore schools for oriya, tamil, blah blah?

    yes, it’s totally lousy that women can’t enter…but then, the government is a strong supporter and funder of sexism…it makes it legal for women to be married to a man who has more than one wife, it disicrimnates women’s right to property based on their husband’s religion, and, worst of all, you can’t fill in a single losuy government form without them asking silly questions about your or name??? why not you’rs siter’s name? why not your mother’s name??

  27. 27 Indo Feminist

    Jaffna:

    You make a valid point that there has to be reform in all religions, not Hinduism alone, from a radical feminist angle. Nilu is sidetracking the issue by an irrelevant and personal attack that has nothing to do with your point.

  28. 28 confused

    Neha,

    Fair enough! I was just too lazy to write in a proper reply because I have become so tired of this religious bull crap. I think the government would be well within its rights to bring in a law to ban such practises. Basically anti-discrimination laws as they exist in US(ADA) ban any discrimination on basis of religion/race/color/sex e.t.c on access to any place even if privately owned. Sadly in India we donot have any such comprehensive laws.

    btw. my second question remains unanswered:How many woman are prepared not to such temples? Faith I tell you…

    On a unrelated note: My market anaolgy was a lazy one but not competely so, I support the right to hate speech and to make racist/sexist remarks. Pretty much liberterian on that matter.

    cheers

  29. 29 Ambar

    Confused:
    Basically anti-discrimination laws as they exist in US(ADA) ban any discrimination on basis of religion/race/color/sex e.t.c on access to any place even if privately owned. Sadly in India we donot have any such comprehensive laws.

    That sounds *very* dubious. What do you mean by “privately owned” here? “Privately owned” could cover anything from a shack to a restaurant to an office.

    Anyway, private property owners should be free to practise any form of discrimination when it comes to admission IMO. Discriminate on the basis of race, sex, religion, clothes…whatever. Its not anyone’s business if I don’t let someone into a building I own because I dislike their face.

  30. 30 Nilu

    Jaffna,
    The question was very different. Something that has to do with your assumption of intellect and the triviality of the solution — regardless of its nature.

  31. 31 Jaffna

    Nilu, There was no assumption of intellect on my part. It was you who assumed in arrogant fashion.

    I am surprised that you call equal rights for women (radical as that might be) trivial. I intentionally made the comparison between polygamy and polyandry since both existed in India. Polyandry was banned in the statute books. Then why not polygamy?

    Indo- Feminist, Many thanks for your kind words of endorsement :-)

  32. 32 Easha

    Nilu,
    Jaffna makes a good case. One can not see issues in isolation. You confused issues by your comment.

  33. 33 Nilu

    Oh gosh!

    Do I have to explain the reference to context in each sentence? I don’t care what your point was. The question/argument put forward had little to with it. I just questioned the need for you to take it up in the first place.

    But apparently you are so drowned in your ownself to understand what I mean - so, yeah, ask such “significant” questions and masturbate your ego. Works for me. Should work for you, too.

  34. 34 confused

    Ambar,

    Please do not confused(pun unintended) with what you want and what is legally allowed.

    I point to two US laws:

    First, American civil rights act, 1964 which banned discrimination on any facility which recieved Federal money. Please note, that does not mean only who recieve Federal money directly as grants. It extends to any company which wants to do business with Federal government, for example hospitals, governement suppliers and such. This was crucual because unlike India, in the US the Right to Property is a fundamental right. So as to say, the federal government spoke with the full power of its wallet.

    Second, American disabilities act which forced private set up to ensure equal access to private concerns offering a public good for example books shops, doctors clinics e.t.c. This called for positive action i.e if the disabled could not access the facility because of lack of ramp, the business had to build one.

    Then there is Fair housing act as Patrix pointed out above, which means you cannot discriminate on basis of race even if you arenting your own damned house.

    If you require more proof of my dubious position, I would be happy to provide it.

  35. 35 confused

    Ambar,

    Please do not confused(pun unintended) with what you want to do and what is legally allowed.

    I point to two US laws:

    First, American civil rights act, 1964 which banned discrimination on any facility which recieved Federal money. Please note, that does not mean only who recieve Federal money directly as grants. It extends to any company which wants to do business with Federal government, for example hospitals, governement suppliers and such. This was crucual because unlike India, in the US the Right to Property is a fundamental right. So as to say, the federal government spoke with the full power of its wallet.

    Second, American disabilities act which forced private set up to ensure equal access to private concerns offering a public good for example books shops, doctors clinics e.t.c. This called for positive action i.e if the disabled could not access the facility because of lack of ramp, the business had to build one.

    Then there is Fair housing act as Patrix pointed out above, which means you cannot discriminate on basis of race even if you arenting your own damned house.

    If you require more proof of my dubious position, I would be happy to provide it.

    And you might provide me a link to any organization in this country which states: Colored people not allowed.

  36. 36 Nilu

    Confused,
    Please revisit your answer - too many holes.

    Firstly, you did not qualify your initial statement till Ambar pointed it. Secondly, property right is as fundamental(or not) in both countries - except the ‘your home is your castle part’ where you get to defend by bearing arms. It is a significant difference, I agree - but not in this context. Considerations of Eminent Domain have more significance here - and in that regard, I would rate India higher than the U.S. in terms of right to property.

    Thirdly, renting is probably the only area where ownership is compromised. Every other prejudiced group - from the Aryan Nation to the NCAAP to the Blue Vein Society has battled and won its right to First Amendment privileges. So, you are not just dubious, you are plain wrong.

    If I remember right, there is voluminous data on the cases that the ACLU fought on behalf of Ku Klux Klan’s First Amendment rights - look up.

  37. 37 Apu

    Well, what do I say except that these practices need to be changed, but I find others saying that before me…so I’ll just say, ‘Me too thinks the same’.
    By the way, Others, if you have not read ‘ Happy-Go-Lucky ’s blogpost yet, and all others too, please do. :) He deserves a *small* mention.

  38. 38 Sanjuktha Sridharan

    There are quite a few in this group whose understanding of feminism is flawed and lacks conceptual integrity. Easy access to the Internet and a desire to write prose have been used viciously to misrepresent issues.

    No longer do I feel that all those who wear the tag of feminism on their sleeve do the movement a service. As Kanchana mentions we see chatter and a tendency of one-up(wo)manship without a tangible plan to usher in change.

    My personal opinion though is that the temple can be kept away from power,pelf and prurience.

  39. 39 Neha Viswanathan

    Note: Aswath Damodaran and Sanjukta Sridharan are the same person. Heavy prose and IP are dead giveaways.

    Continue. Continue.
    *Sits on the sidelines*

  40. 40 Nilu

    err, I meant NAACP.

  41. 41 Tehmina Rehman

    Nilu, you are clueless and offensive. Let us take your ranting on Jaffna for example. Jaffna’s questions had everything to do with patriachy and the need to refute it. You are obviously dense to see the links. You are probably male too. So, please give us a break, will ya. I speak as a Muslim woman and I want polygamy abolished. Just as Neha wants equal access to Sabarimalai. It is all about equality.

    Neha, good blog overall. Keep up the fight. I discovered this site only today.

  42. 42 Nilu

    Dear Tehima,
    The exact point am trying to make here is - I do not care if you are a woman or a Muslim or anything else. Thanks for validating my claim.

    And the whether his questions are relevant or not is immaterial to mine. Please read them again. And if I am offensive, you must blame my resume.

  43. 43 Tehmina Rehman

    Nilu

    You simply do not get it. We have nothing in common.

  44. 44 Nilu

    Oh really? I thought we were athai ponnu - how heart breaking!

  45. 45 Tehmina Rehman

    Dear Neha,

    I would like to expand the discussion a bit. Muslim women are not allowed into the main section of the Dargahs as well. This bothers me no end (not that I intend to visit one but.) Take Nizamuddin Auliya or Ajmer for example. Somehow, men get to decide where we can go and can not.

  46. 46 froginthewell

    Jaffna, here is one occasion where I have to disagree with you. Our culture places a lot of emphasis on brahmacarya, and it should be possible for institutions to restrict access to people in the interest of brahmacarya.

    shArada maTh restricts men entry to certain parts of it - only women can enter there. That doesn’t mean they believe in female supremacy either. I remember reading holy mother shArada dEvi
    advising some woman not to approach even Ishvara if he comes as man. There is no misandry here, just brahmacarya, and that is not disrespectful at all. But I agree with Mahesh that terms like “pollution by women” and “purification” are offensive.

    It is a different matter that government should not fund or control these institutions. Temples can sustain themselves very well since devotees pour money into them.

    It seems many atheists here are incapable of understanding how religious people think, so they ascribe wrong motives to them and just fret and fume. I request such people to actually argue the matter out rather than just make ad hominem attacks and random assertions.

  47. 47 froginthewell

    I apologize for saying “incapable of” in the last paragraph in my comment above. I only mean that currently they don’t seem to understand many religious motives and needs. I do wish that they come in for constructive discussions regarding that.

    Also nEha : if at all the government is only exploiting shabarimala. The temple gets lakhs as revenue, only part of which goes to temple and pilgrim needs.

  48. 48 Falstaff

    On a completely unrelated (and somewhat flippant) note, and without disagreeing in any way with the larger questions of equality for women, etc. will someone please explain to me why anyone would want to go to a temple in the first place? When I think of all the temples I’ve been dragged to over the years, kicking and screaming, I can’t help but feel a little envious of these women. I wish someone would ban me from temples. And poojas. And other religious mumbo-jumbo.

    And why would anyone, Freud / Groucho Marx / Woody Allen aside, want to be a member of a club that won’t have them for a member? Instead of demanding that women be allowed into the temple, I propose that we demand that men be banned from it as well.

  49. 49 Neha Viswanathan

    This discussion is getting a little long and I cannot make personal remarks. But a few quick points.

    1. This is not about what is right and what is wrong. I don’t understand the concept of ethics. This is about rights. Depending on which school of Rights you follow - this could be state-given, state-guaranteed or your “birthright”. Simple.

    2. Anybody who believes that women are impure during their period is a moron.

    3. The response to a moron idea like women being impure is not to cite an example by asking “Do men become impure if they cut their hand?”. When somebody is irrational - you cannot convince them by point out that another event should also be irrational by their logic.

    4. This has little to do with faith. This is about civil codes.

    5. Whether or not atheists are capable of understanding is irrelevant.

    6. This is not about WANTING to do something. This is about having the choice and the freedom to do it. I may never want to go the Ring Road in Delhi. But do I have the right to go there? It’s not candy. It’s a right! Groucho clearly did not have a uterus. And perhaps he was indulding in irony more than maxim.

    7. Regardless of how much the temple ploughs back to the state - if it supported in any manner - even by a rupee - somewhere that’s taxpayer’s money. I don’t want my money to support a sexist institution. (And yes - Ideally I wouldn’t want it to support any religious institution.) I make exceptions for archaelogical and heritage sites.

    8. Reform has always been an uncomfortable term. It assumes some sort of ethical superiority. However - for the lack of any other term - etc.

    9. Private clubs have the right to refuse admission - no matter how stupid, incoherent and idiotic the basis of refusal. One can only hope that their patrons begin to find this refusal irritating/ annoying. (For instance - I try not to patronize institutions/ artists that are sexist. In my small - humble 1GBP at a time manner.) The loss of clientele, consumer base and other such sources of financial worry may force such private clubs to change their rules accordingly - and become more inclusive. In case they don’t - they probably will perish anyway. Clubs/ religion/ restaurants/ educational institutions lose their relevance if they don’t adapt to a changing market. No matter how much it annoys me - the only way I can force change on a private club - is to stop giving it money/ boycott it/ encourage others to boycott it.

    Tehmina: I agree. It used to infuriate me when I went to the dargah of Nizamuddin Auliya. Clearly the Auliya was accessible to women in his lifetime. The Pirzadas are sometimes almost apologetic about it. Which amuses me further. Who controls religion? Who controls movement within the religion?

  50. 50 Swapna

    Does it really matter whether the temples get state funding or not? Discrimination is discrimination no matter how you put it.

    It just needs to be stopped. In temples, you see discrimination all the time. In Mantralayam, brahmins and non-brahmins are made to sit seperately in different halls and given food and the food given itself varies. You can only do some pujas if you are a brahmin. I’m a brahmin but when I see such discrimination, it makes me so mad.

    A long time ago in America, Blacks were not allowed into the same church as whites. They didn’t have a church. This was after the civil war, after slavery had been abolished. But now, they are treated equally. We need to make sure all kinds of discrimination - between men and women, or brahmins or non-brahmins needs to be stopped.

  51. 51 Neha Viswanathan

    Swapna: Being a female Brahmin is no good as far as I know. It gets you as far as the temple door. :)

    The abolition of slavery and the Civil Rights movement (while addressing a similar mandate) were in two different centuries and had different reasons. Abolition of slavery in the US had a lot to do with the state of economy and the Civil War. It was a larger political instrument to control the South. Civil Rights movement is traced between 1955 and (roughly) 1970. This is not to say that the former’s legacy did not have a massive impact on the latter. However - the connection between the two is not as simplistic. Nor do I think it provides an accurate analogy.

    When you say

    We need to make sure all kinds of discrimination - between men and women, or brahmins or non-brahmins needs to be stopped.

    Who exactly do you mean by “we”? You and me? People who think like you? Because it is the “right” thing to do? Or because it is a Non-Brahmin’s “Right”? Please understand - I fully respect your sentiments and intentions - am just trying to demonstrate the futulity of absolutism.

  52. 52 Neha Viswanathan

    Froginthewell: Lol! When did I say I was fair!?!

  53. 53 froginthewell

    My bad. But please read my comments modulo personal remarks. What I perceive as hatred/double standards against religion ( which to me represents absolute truth and the purpose/whatever of existence ) sometimes makes me make blind emotional statements. I guess my mail arguments hold good irrespective of those.

  54. 54 Aditya Srinath

    I was nudged into reading this “impassioned clamour” for rights to enter a holy temple, by my “dumbstruck” pals east of the bay. My faith in the construct of IQ and its range of values stands reinforced having read this thread (tongue - in-cheek). The ETS can spend less time now garnering material for its tests,having an abundant supply of it here for all its sections except quantitative aptitude :-)

    Water finds its level — a message left with no traces of humility !

  55. 55 sudeep

    Let me try to understand this correctly..

    For forms sake, lets say, I am a misogynist, and I refuse to entertain any female guests in my home. Can the government force me to entertain any woman - desirous of an equal footing in a male dominated society - to wage her battles in my home ?

    The answer clearly is No. Women or men who do not like me being a misogynist can call me names, refuse to deal commercially with me, but they can not force me to entertain female guests in my home. Unless, ofcourse, any aggrieved party can convinsingly claim that they are put to undue hardship by my not entertaining them.

    1) What is the undue hardship being caused to women in general by the Sabarimala temple, which is a private entity taken over by fiat by the State Govt., refusing them entry ? (*)

    2) The state has a responsibility to provide security to all its citizens. Even the murderers, rapists and what have you. There is no reaon why the state should ask its employees to look the other way if my house is being burgled because I hate women and wont let them in my house.

    —-
    (*) Claiming that temples are centers of power and pelf and you are excluded from it if not allowed in does not cut any ice. You are not *entitled* to hold a stake in a political or social organization by default. Infact, if a groups fundamental character is violated by your becoming a part of it - you are violating that groups freedom to exist. For instance, in the US, a gay person *can not* demand a membership in a fundamentalist christian club if the club chooses to deny that membership.

    —-
    Lastly, I agree with you that not allowing females entry in temples, or not allowing them to become priests etc is incorrect, but people you and I disagree with have rights too. Your rights can not be enforced by usurping the rights of others.

  56. 56 Falstaff

    Neha: Actually, it is about wanting to do something. By your own argument, private institutions have the right to discriminate (I’m not quite sure where we ended up on the question of whether the temple is state-funded - I thought I saw someone say that its wasn’t; if it is, it shouldn’t be), so the only way we can get discrimination to stop, without setting up a police state, is by moving demand elsewhere. As long as people continue to want to go to Sabrimala, the priests there have every incentive to use the power this gives them to discriminate against women. I don’t understand why anyone would put up with that kind of disrespect. Why wouldn’t you just say, “you won’t let me in - well, scr*w you, I’ll go to a temple that does want my custom”. If we are protesting this discrimination in any way, the right way to do it, in my opinion, is not to demand that women be let in, which will only feed the ego of the priests who are behind this discrimination, the right way to do it is to encourage everyone to boycott the temple, so that the temple itself becomes irrelevant. As I understand your argument, you agree with all of that. But how is boycotting something / encouraging others to boycott something not about wanting to enter the temple?

    Groucho, with or without his uterus, was clearly being flippant. But the irony still holds - by demanding entry to clubs that exclude us (or others) we ratify the very power that is keeping us out. Unless we actively encourage people to shun discriminatory institutions - there’s no reason for them to “naturally” perish. And surely we can do better than “hope that their patrons find their refusal irritating or annoying”. We can make take active steps to make sure that they do.

    Just to be clear - I’m not asking why should women want to go to this temple? I’m asking, why should anyone want to go there? You say religion is “inherited wealth” (I tend to see it more as inherited cost, but whatever) - but why would you want to inherit an institution that’s non-inclusive and discriminatory. Why wouldn’t you want to destroy it instead? Patriarchal traditions are ‘inherited wealth’ too - do you really want women to get their equal share of them? I agree with almost everything you say in your post. I’m just disturbed by the fact that you seem to be content to leave the ‘economic forces’ that will shut the temple down in the absence of state funding more or less to chance. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just call for everyone, men and women, to boycott the temple till it’s forced to shut down.

  57. 57 Nilu

    Will someone please let me know who this Falstaff dude is? Is he Dilip’s mama payyan?

  58. 58 Neha Viswanathan

    Falstaff: We clearly see power differently. I see institutions that are inherited. Unfortunately patriarchy is embedded in them. I don’t wish to give up on these institutions.

    I am no one to decide what women who want to go to Sabarimala should do. Boycott isn’t picketing. You merely stop patronizing a place till the institution realizes its loss of market - and changes. To force change on an institution that doesn’t receive government funding is to impinge on someone’s rights too.

    Why would you question what another person wants? Why would I question another’s faith? I am concerned about my rights. I am not here to sit on a pile of virtue am I? Women are not idiots. They can want whatever they want. (Even if someone is an idiot.)

    Neha’s Note - Aditya Srinath - Next time you leave a comment, please know that your wife comments very regularly here. It won’t be hard for me to state who you are and link to your blog. Have the courage to own up to who you are in a public domain. Editions and Abridged versions aside.
    Sudeep: I don’t understand. Where is the conflict? A person’s right to not be robbed is different from a person’s right to admit someone in their house.

  59. 59 Falstaff

    Neha: See my post on the subject at 2×3x7. I think the key difference is that you see ‘patriarchy’ and ‘institutions’ as two distinct things, and therefore believe that you can remove the patriarchy without destroying the institution. I see them as fundamentally intertwined and inseperable.

    I’m not ‘forcing’ anyone to do anything. I’m simply trying to understand why anyone would want to pray in a place that clearly does not want them. Obviously people have a right to act like idiots - I’m just saying that as far as I’m concerned wanting to be part of an institution that demeans you is idiotic. There’s a difference between questioning what someone else wants and stopping them from doing it.

    You say once the institution loses market share it’ll change. Maybe, maybe not. My point is, once we’ve taken our patronage elsewhere, why do we care whether Sabarimala shuts down / opens its gates to women. It’s irrelevant to us, isn’t it? And if it isn’t, if you care so much about Sabarimala that you’ll go running there the minute they let women in, then I’m unconvinced that you’ll be able to mount an effective boycott.

    Oh, and notice that women can’t actually boycott Sabarimala - there’s no question of their not patronizing a temple if it won’t let them in in the first place. If you want Sabarimala to experience a loss of market, you’re going to have some way of making men boycott it. Which is what I was suggesting (if somewhat flippantly) in my first comment.

  60. 60 Jo

    I’m a Catholic and have seen people murmuring (even womenfolk) “Oh, its not right that the nuns giving the holy bread”. I have often wondered why nuns are not allowed to lead a holy mass.

    Its there in every religion. Money and descrimination within reigion. Usually we tend to look only at Islam when it comes to talk about the women rights in Religion. So am glad this issue came up and people started talking about it. God save Jayamala and I dont think God will ever be angry that a woman touched his (or his idol’s) feet. It is not a crime.

  61. 61 froginthewell

    Jo, the part about touching the feet is different - none but the priests are allowed to enter the shrIkOvil ( sanctum sanctorum ) - including men. That is okay.

    P. S. : Sorry for the previous three comments - I thought they weren’t published, as I didn’t see them published.

  62. 62 froginthewell

    What is this business with “minorities with govt. funding can discriminate because they are allowed to”? The government then might well have made provisions allowing temples to discriminate.

  63. 63 Neha Viswanathan

    Falstaff: I guess we look at institutions differently then. Women can boycott Sabarimala in many ways. Men afterall are likely to be part of households. Negotiating in the personal space is also a political statement. What if a woman expresses displeasure - and a man feels that he’d rather risk Ayyappa’s displeasure than the woman’s? :D

    Perhaps I am also willing to look at this way - Women’s Suffrage. Why did they bother asking for the Right to Vote. Why want to be part of an institution. (Democratic Government) if the institution didn’t want them? Why not start parallel institutions?

    I believe that institutions can and will change. They will need to - if they want to stay relevant. Otherwise, alternate institutions will spring up anyway.

    Jo: I guess it’s across religions. Though I see the Church of England is working rather hard to overcome these obstacles. It’s an example of a religious institution that has changed and is open to change. From female priests to same sex marriages.

    froginthewell: The government didn’t. Point.

  64. 64 Falstaff

    Neha: Oh, absolutely. As long as we’re clear that we’re actively getting men to boycott the temple, whether through personal space or otherwise. Between a woman and Ayyappa, one should always choose the woman - at least you’re sure she exists.

    And the democratic government example is a particularly bad one - you can’t start parallel institutions because by definition there is only one government. Wherever there’s a logical reason for the institution to hold a monopoly, you have no choice but to force the institution to adapt. Where multiple institutions are possible however, and there’s no reason other than your own willingness to be subservient for there to be a monopoly, such as with temples, building new institutions may be the more effective and efficient option.

  65. 65 ?!

    The Sabarimala authorities are enforcing what they see as a tradition in accordance with their faith.

    As someone said, they shouldn’t be funded by the State. If they are (which is unlikely given their cash cow), it should be rescinded. However, they are well within their rights to hold and enforce their beliefs and ask for the protection accorded to all by the State. Whether or not the rest of the world agrees with them.

    I think their attitude stinks. But faith itself changes with time, if not as fast as one would like it to. If you ask people in the South of an older generation, they will tell you that women were segregated for their periods at one point of time. Not allowed to enter kitchen, touch others etc. Somewhere down the line, the tradition died out.So I guess Sabarimala wil follow suit sooner or later.

    In the meantime; is it worth that big a fuss ?

    As usual, of course, we have the v earnest, the verbosely tangential and the hopelessly confused along with passing nitwits. (Yeah, that’s a cue for obvious ripostes).
    And Nilu seeking attention by trying to rile everybody.

    “Hota hai shab-e-roz tamashaa mere aage” .

    Hehhhhh.

  66. 66 Neha Viswanathan

    Falstaff: Schools then. Or colleges. Or hospitals. Government I still think is an interesting example. But we all have our analogical preferences.

    Well, one thing this entire comment thread proves is that it is near impossible that we all will be convinced with any sort of discussion.

  67. 67 froginthewell

    Government didn’t make the requisite legal provisions? How do you know?

  68. 68 Subbarao Seethamsetty

    Neha, I just discovered your blog and duly impressed. Sabarimala is an institution that has its rules and it has (always had it before our constituion was born) the right to pursue all its strictures whether some of us like them or not. About state funding, Sudeep was clear above with the point that the state is obligated to extend protection to everyone. say. including criminals.

    When you claim that you, as a woman, have a right to your heritage and all of it - you certainly do. But the heritage detail in question of allowing only men up there IS “the heritage” that you inherit. Now, should you have the right to change the heritage that you inherit? Yes and you share the rights with those who want to change it, those who want to leave things as they are, the loud passionate ones and those who don’t care one way or other.

    By asking for this drastic change, you alter the institution in a fundamental way and I personally think that is not fair or appropraite. To me it is like building a Disney theme park in the 100 years old Central park in New York City, or dynamiting Mount Everest because of some petty or parochial expediency etc. There is a charm in preserving historical institutions for their own sake. Nothing is stopping us from putting out new ones. As another comment above pointed out, traditions die, change and morph in time. May be this blog and this post is a part of that process. i am ok as long as you don’t spawn religious roits by the ayappa faithful with a bunch of women forcing their way up to the temple. There is enough gore and violence on earth today and we do not need more.

    When it comes to women’s rights, I think the first and immediate priority is to make sure they are physically and emotionally safe on this planet, starting THIS minute. The question of Sabarimala pales in front of the cruelties that millions of women are subjected to as I write this comment. The bombings in Palestine and iraq, the machette hackings in Africa, the abuse of muslim women, especially in impoversihed and God forsaken places (forsaken by Ayappa too I suppose and by all of us), and women reeling under domestic violence across all socio-economic spectrum etc. Let us address these horrible crimes-in-progress immediately and get off our high horses of fine intellectual debate.

  69. 69 ?!

    Errr… Neha ? Intrusion.

    This comment thread I thought proved the opposite … that we are all convinced of our points of view and the only “discussion” people want to have is to try and convince the others how stupid they are : )

  70. 70 Nilu

    ?!,
    Just curious - do you enter into a discussion in a random blog with the expectation to get that Earth shattering clarity whicch would explain the essence of life, death and everything inbetween?

  71. 71 ?!

    Nilu : you aren’t curious ; just needy for attention.

    And I enter into discussions to while away an idle moment or two. Just as you get in to whine your way into the limelight.

    Oh well, I am on home Net access. Office woulda meant I could flame you with the taxpayer’s money. I mean, if the Govt can fund Ayyapa, it can fund me.

  72. 72 Hari

    If the women status is a problem across Hinduism and its temples - go ahead and fight it out. But if among so many temples there is one, with a specific story, and specific faith whats your problem? I see it as diversity and that helps the idea of freedom. I do not see it as freedom to make everything look same - for you have no idea what you are going to leave out, for you are not God or Goddess. I would be glad if among the various temples there was one where only women could enter. If there is none like that… sorry. But taking it out on Lord Ayyapa temple is of no purpose. By the way I am not Hindu, but at the face of it I like the idea that it has so many channels of faith to reach out. My gut feel, without any proper knowledge, is that the British rule and the Moghuls destroyed a lot of diversity (versions) that existed earlier and increasingly made Hinduism a singular identity which it was never built to be. And now its the turn of people like you and me to complete the process? I hope not.

  73. 73 Nilu

    ?!,
    Curious again, since when did you get to decide what my intent was?

  74. 74 anonymous

    I am sorry to be writing this anonymously, and I admit I dont have the backbone to talk about it with my name on it for very good reasons that will become apparent to you after I read my thought here.
    I am completely and totally surprised that nobody has even remotely considered or wondered the reasons behind why “women” are not allowed. I am a woman and I am very liberal in my thinking. From my understanding, though Ayappa is known to have been a prince who brought tiger’s milk in the legends, the mythical belief is that he was a baby born out of the “marriage” of “Vishnu” and “Shiva,” during the effort to take “Amrith.” Vishnu changed himself into a woman and lured Shiva and thus was born Ayappa. Ayappa’s fiance remained a virgin and has a temple down in the hill there where devotees still pray.
    Adding one and two together, I think that sanctum sanctorum is to justify and glorify what we call “gayism” in the modern world. As liberal women I think we should let this go on, because they have their rights and they have their reasons. I only hope there is no abuse in the name of God. As long as it is a glorification of a right that is barely spoken openly in our lands, its okay for me, though I am a woman. I think gays have a right to their god, we are not needed there. I say this with all respect to Shiva, Vishnu and Ayappa and hinduism. My intention was not to ridicule anything.

  75. 75 roops

    neha - well, in this case, there was an explicit rule imposed by the temple, which has been in place for decades, if not centuries… religion, cultures and beliefs deserve a privileged respect, due to the sensitivities and beliefs of countless number of believers of the religion…as long as they are not too harsh or extreme to follow, in which case the rule gets watered down…

    if there is a day when the sabarimala temple rule is to be broken on legal grounds, then the same day, women should also be allowed in mosques, inside the main mosque…and, as jo has mentioned above, the day when women are allowed to lead the holy mass… will that happen in India? NEVER! The Indian political system will never dare go against the will of the minority leaders…

    first realise that hinduism is the ONLY religion in the world that gives as much importance to goddess, as to gods. the other more popular religions in the world, christianity and islam, don’t care a damn for their women…they just shun them or humiliate them…

    if u think my comments on the “minority” religions affects the sensitivities of this community, think again…your comments hurt the feelings of a much larger (hindu) community… who, unfortunately have been, by nature, soft, tolerant, and eternally patient to their supposedly “under-privilged” counterparts…

    david killing goliath sounds heroic only when goliath is the “evil guy”, but in today’s india, goliath is always killed, however good he may be…

    i sign off,saluting the oldest preserved religion in the world…praying it will remain preserved forever.

  76. 76 anupama

    Reading something like this really makes me angry. It makes me want to lose my faith. Basically this boils down to Hinduism beng a relegion written by the men for the men. And the reasons why a woman of a particular age cannot go is ridiculous. There is avery good article written about this issue at

    http://www.countercurrents.org/gender-raji160704.htm

    Read it. It does say that

    ” Sabarimala IS a publicly funded temple: Article 290A of the Indian Constitution entails the State of Kerala to pay, yearly, 4.65 million rupees to Sabarimala’s Temple board ” and

    ” Article 25(2b) was instituted specifically for them (untouchables) ; to ensure that they could pursue their religion unhampered. This article gives State the power to make laws for “the throwing open of Hindu religious institutions of a public character to all classes and sections of Hindus”.

    The only way soemthing like this can be changes is for the women to rise up as one and do something about it. Most are so indifferent about it. They just want to nod their heads and follow whatever the rules say. How impressive it would be if Hindu women said no, maybe had a boycott of hindu relegion, refuse to sit and take it. They have the power to do it, but not the interest or the inclination to bring about a change.

    This has to be changed. In no way can this temple function as gender discrimanatory place when working women pay their taxes for it. And if the courts agree with the discrimination then change in the state of kerala should start at the top.

    For my part, I dont want to believe in a God that forbids me to pray to Him. Unless there is a change in laws I am going to go with the more women friendly Gods :)

    Anupama

  77. 77 Small Talk

    Legend has it that the god concerned, Ayyappa, did not want women in his temple. If you are a believer, a woman and you believe in the legend, you wouldn’t go there. If not, the question has no relevance to you and you stay away as a non-believer. This is a religious institution and has the right to keep away non-believers (like in fire temples, mosques and some hindu temples). To me, it is as simple as that.

    This is akin to saying, we need to re-write the Ramayan, or not worship Rama because he made Sita walk through fire. Silly, me thinks.

  78. 78 Asha

    Dear Neha,

    Just to let you know that I personally feel that it is best to leave a sexist God and his devotees to their own devices. You should come to Trivandrum during the Attukal Pongala ( Feb/March) when lakhs of women come and take over the streets and cook a pongala for the Attukal Bhagavati. Men are NOT allowed anywhere near this. The only men are volunteers and the priests ( yes why shd they also not be women?). Sadly, the Shiv Sena has been sending male volunteers in large numbers to this event. This is called the Sabarimala for women.( pennukenulathe sabarimala) You should attend a pongala for yourself and then let me know what you think.

    Also, regarding the actress who entered Sabarimala, if she did this genuinely to make a point that women should be allowed in, why did she keep mum about her act for two decades ?

    Also, a woman is going to sing for the first time at the Navaratri Mandapam festival beginning this year ( 2006).

    Asha

  79. 79 ranjit

    Hi..
    u gt it abs wrong buddy…
    Sabarimala doesnt recieve any state funding..and even if it does,it fills state (read devaswom) coffers much more than it takes.It is a declared source of revenue.

    and as far as constitutionality of the issue is concerned,Kerala High court has given a clear verdict on the issue madam.Hope u agree that you/we are not better interpreters of consti.

  80. 80 bhattathiri

    From

    The Editor

    Dear Sir

    I may humbly rquest to publish the following letter in the “letters to the editor” column after necessary editing.

    I am writng this not to just add fire to the controversy now prevailing. Let wisdom overtake emotions among devotees at this time.

    This is the only temple in India where religiuos harmony is prevaling.

    It is most unfortunate that cinema actress Jayamala’s reported revelation that she had touched the idol of Lord Ayyappa at the Sabarimala temple when she was 27, has sparked a controversy al over India. All medias are giving due importance to this. It is customary that women between the age-group of 10-50 are not allowed inside the Sabarimala temple. This custom is being practiced considering the celibacy of the God Ayyappa.

    This Sabarimala temple is situated atop a hill in Kerala and houses a bachelor God called Ayyappa. It is purported that around the 14th of January, every year, a celestial fire - a Jyothi with healing powers - glows in the sky near the Sabarimala shrine. A controversy exists for this also.

    What is the relationship between religion and women’s rights? Should we care about the treatment of women by religions of the world? Should we be bothered when we see, even in the twenty-first century, a woman being prohibited from doing certain things, like becoming ordained or entering a temple just because she is a woman?

    But why does the Temple board tell her so? It gives a smorgasbord of reasons: The eight kilometer trek to the temple along dense woods is arduous for women; Ayyappa is a bachelor God and his bachelorhood will be broken if he sees a woman; the forty-one-day penance for the pilgrimage, where one must live as abstemiously as a saint, cannot be undertaken by women - they are too weak for that; men cohorts will be enticed to think bad thoughts if women joined them in their trek; letting women into the temple will disrupt law and order; women’s menstrual blood will attract animals in the wild and jeopardize fellow travelers; menstruation is a no-no for God.

    And so the list of lame reasons grows. Don’t think that no one has ever questioned the inanity of those reasons. Several Indian feminists have fought, and keep fighting, with the Temple board in favor of the women devotees. But the Temple board remains implacable. It is backed by enormous political clout, and poor Indian feminists, like feminists almost everywhere, must fend for themselves. It doesn’t help that many Indian women are disinterested in any feminist struggle. They think that it is presumptuous for women to defy established customs. It is hard to rally them, especially when it involves flouting tradition or religion.

    Nevertheless, many brave and, sometimes, distressed women, boldly try to go where no young woman has gone before. ” Here is a report from a publication called Hinduism Today: “The ban was upheld by Kerala’s High Court in 1990, but the issue is now being raised by a 42-year old district collector, K.B. Valsala Kumari, who was ordered to coordinate pilgrim services at the shrine. A special court directive allowed her to perform her government duties at the shrine, but not to enter the sanctum sanctorum.” In December 2002, Khaleej Times reported, “Women have made this year’s Sabarimala pilgrim season controversial by entering the prohibited hill shrine…Kerala high court has ordered an inquiry to find out how a large number of women had reached the shrine in violation of court orders.” Strange, isn’t it, for the court to scribe such discriminatory orders?

    Fifty-four years ago, when the Constitution of India was framed, “Untouchables” - the lower-caste Indians who were believed to be “impure” and hence objectionable to God - won the right to equality and broke open the gates of temples that were closed to them thus far. Article 25(2b) was instituted specifically for them; to ensure that they could pursue their religion unhampered. This article gives State the power to make laws for “the throwing open of Hindu religious institutions of a public character to all classes and sections of Hindus”. Sabarimala is a publicly temple: Article 290A of the Indian Constitution entails the State of Kerala to pay, yearly, 4.65 million rupees to Sabarimala’s Temple board. Nevertheless, it has so far remained shut to one section of Indians - the young Indian women. And the State, instead of opening it for them, works to ensure that it remains shut to them. Now it is the best time that all concerned should sit together and discuss whether permission can be given for women to enter Sabarimala

    It is ironic that this shrine, praised as “an unmatched instance of religious tolerance”, a temple open to men of all castes and religions, doesn’t tolerate most women. The society that has grown, at least outwardly, to breach “God’s decree” to keep lower-caste men out of His vicinity, is still struggling to defy “His despise” for women. especially, menstruating women.

    Is it so because women are still regarded impure and detestable, at least during certain times? Is it because none in power is disposed to champion women’s causes? Is it because women themselves are disinclined to unite against their discrimination? Is it because caste-discrimination is accepted to be viler than gender-discrimination? Is it because society is averse to disturbing the male-dominated hierarchy in India? This ban on women in Sabarimala, while it appears to be a religious issue, at its core, indicates an uglier problem - the oft-dismissed and court-sanctioned oppression of women in India.

    What were the reasons and sentiments behind the human belief in the worship of God? Belief in the concept of God and worship of God are not one and the same. All those who worship God, cannot be said to have belief in the concept of God. There are many people, who think that there is no loss in worshipping God, even if such a God does not exist; but if there is one, it will bless them. The basic reason for the belief in the concept of God is the fear of death. Inability of mankind can be attributed as the next reason. The man, who set his foot on the soil of the Moon and who was able to send a missile to Mars, could neither defeat the phenomenon of death, nor could stop the natural disasters like earthquake, volcanic eruption, cyclone or floods. Apart from all these during the bad cycle of life many people have to suffer from unexpected sorrows aroused from close family members, friends and colleagues. Then majority of them will start believing that this is the curse of God. Comparatively, humanity’s sufferings, disasters and losses are more than the benefits it derived from the concept of God and Religion. Great wars fought, people killed or harassed in the name of God are numerous. Don’t fear God, Love Him. In this context it is better to highlight a verse from Bhagavad Gita

    Mind is very restless, forceful and strong, O Krishna, it is more difficult to control the mind than to control the wind ~ Arjuna to Sri Krishna.

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